Here is a copy of DeltaDart's original request:
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 04/25/01, 12:42:00pm (#877 of 901) Posted on CNN's Suggest a Topic thread.
Topic: Vietnam Veterans their role in our government and the impact of the Vietnam war on today's policies and leaders.
The News today, Sen. Bob Kerrey, Medal of Honor winner, Vietnam Vet it questioned about his role in Vietnam by the press, yet George W. Bush's role and questionable Air National Guard service (Did he get special privilege to avoid the draft? Has President Bush's refusal to release his military records, as John McCain did and as Al Gore have done, a concern to you? Has President Bush adequately explained where he was in 1972...the years he has not explained where he was? Will Sen. Kerrey's involvement in killing innocent people during the war be a problem for him?)
These are just a few of the questions I would like to have a forum to discuss with other CNN'ers. Vietnam Vets need a place to air out their lives. We as a country need to openly discuss our leaders roles during this time in our history. Here is the response that CNN's Staff gave DeltaDart:
CNN responded to my request as follows:
Friday, 04/27/01, 1:19:58am CNN responded (Re: #887 of 901)
DeltaDart 4/25/01 12:42pm
Please visit the Kerrey and Vietnam board to discuss this topic.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 6:23:22pm (#1 of 1156)
The time has come to heal one of the remaining wounds of the Vietnam War that divides our country. Tens of thousands of young Americans served in the military reserves and national guards during the war. Most served their country honorably, and many were called to active duty to serve alongside those of us who fought and died in Vietnam. However, history has revealed that a small group of Americans were able through wealth and connections to avoid active service by being inducted into the guards. Reports have already identified current presidential candidate G. W. Bush as one of these Americans. Now we learn from his record that he apparently never even bothered to report for duty for an entire year. The name for this, as any fair and patriotic American knows, is desertion
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell's autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)So, if a deserter like George aWol Bush...a man who deserted our country when the U.S. was at war in Vietnam can become President, a man like Kerrey who served with honor, courage, and commitment shouldn't have a problem.
I ask all Bush supporters - "Where was Bush in 1972?"
George aWol Bush was suspended from being a pilot for refusing (Disobeying an order) to take a mandatory flight physical. (Oh, by the way...the DoD had just began to test pilots for drugs which would have been part of the physical Bush missed...Hmmm?)
Click here to see the
Freedom of Information (FOIA) document of Bush being suspended as a pilot
"Why did Bush refuse to take a mandatory flight physical, which resulted in his suspension?
Where was Bush in 72?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 6:43:25pm (#3 of 1156)
As a pilot, John McCain and other pilots dropped a lot of bombs in Nam.
Do you think they only dropped bombs on NVR? I think not. Why won't McCain talk about his accidents?
I would vote for Kerrey in a second if the comparisons to a deserter like Bush becomes an issue.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 6:48:38pm (#4 of 1156)
If Bush can become POTUS with questionable service himself, Why would Kerrey have a problem? President Bush has never answered where he was in 1972 and the press has ignored his service.
As you might note: CNN censored the very first post on this thread where I compared and questioned how Bush could get away with deserting his duty and become Prez., so why would Kerrey's experience be a problem.
You know there are a lot of Vietnam Vets who are very unhappy with what Bush got away with--so, if he can do it, any real...honorable Vet like Kerrey should be able to.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 6:59:51pm (#9 of 1156)
Peter - It's time for VV's to come out...It's Time!
I remember when they dedicated the wall..."So much was lost with you, so much talent and intelligence and decency...you embodied the best that was in us. You were a part of us, and a part of us died with you, the small part that was still young, that had not yet grown cynical, grown bitter and old with death...whatever the right of wrongs of the war, nothing can diminish the rightness of what you tried to do...You were faithful. Your country is not... "As I write this, 11 years after your death, the country for which you died wished to forget the war in which you died. Its very name is a curse...But there are a few of us who do remember because of the small things that made us love you - your gestures, the words you spoke, and the way you looked. We love you for what you were and what you stood for." (This is a passage from Philip Caputo's book, "A Rumor of War. "Recited to Vets during his tribute to the names on the VWM during the dedication of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial by Jan Scruggs, Vietnam Veteran.)
I had a conversation with another Vet who was mad as hell at Bush for his military shame and during our conversation he told me of a story about a brother...(We were discussing Bush being suspended as a pilot, Bush getting special privilege to get out of going to Nam, Bush--just walking away from his duty...)
His story was about those Vets who actually made it back--but did they really...
"Wolfie, however much he may have wanted to show up, unfortunately, will not be on hand. He's dead, and as far as I'm concerned there ought to be a Wall for all the guys who went down like he did - broken on the wheel of bad memories. They're in pauper's graves, in asylums, on the streets, in the bushes, on the needle... So it's up to guys like me to step up and fill the gap. EVERWHERE BUSH GOES, guys in old khaki jackets carrying signs..."Where Were YOU?"..."Why were you suspended"..."Why Won't You Release your Military Records!"
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 8:05:21pm (#19 of 1156)
The press is questioning Kerrey, but our current POTUS has a lot of questions needing answer to as well..
Four months before enlisting, Bush reported at Westover Air Force Base in Massachusetts to take the Air Force Officers Qualification Test. While scoring 25 percent for pilot aptitude - "about as low as you could get and be accepted," and 50 percent for navigator aptitude in his initial testing, he scored 95 percent on questions designed to reflect "officer quality," compared with a current-day average of 88 percent.
Among the questions Bush had to answer on his application forms was whether he wanted to go overseas. Bush checked the box that said: "do not volunteer."
Bush said in an interview that he did not recall checking the box. Two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush "was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form." During a second interview, Bush himself raised the issue.
"Had my unit been called up, I'd have gone . . . to Vietnam," Bush said. "I was prepared to go." Bush Talks-the-talk but he has never Walked-the-walk!
But there was no chance Bush's unit would be ordered overseas. Bush says that toward the end of his training in 1970, he tried to volunteer for overseas duty, asking a commander to put his name on the list for a "Palace Alert" program, which dispatched qualified F-102 pilots in the Guard to the Europe and the Far East, occasionally to Vietnam, on three- to six-month assignments.
Bob Kerrey served with honor and now the press questions him, but what about Bush? The man just walked away from his service--Where was he in 1972? Why did he refuse to take a flight physical, which caused him to be suspended as a pilot? Click here to see the
Freedom of Information (FOIA) document of Bush being suspended as a pilot
Why won't Bush release his military records? (John McCain did. So did Al Gore, but George aWol Bush refuses to this day to release his...What is he hiding?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 8:18:43pm (#25 of 1156)
It's time for Vietnam Vets to speak up to talk and discuss the war. We have a President in office who was given special privilege to avoid the draft. Bush, just 2 weeks before being drafted joined the TX-Air National Guard--he was accepted the same day he applied...Bush also jumped over over 500+ other men and women who were already on the list to get into the Guard. (Some of them on the list for over a year.)
So, Bush gets special privilege...He goes into the Guard...
It's funny, because Colin Powell talked about guys like Bush...
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell's autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)Medal of Honor winner, Bob Kerrey Walked-the-walk but we have a POTUS who basically received very special privilege and treatment to avoid going to Nam and what did he do with it? Bush just walked away.
Where were you President Bush in 72?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 9:10:04pm (#45 of 1156)
DRS -
You asked what Bush has to do with this thread? This thread that questions Kerry's position to be POTUS...a man of honor hen the current POTUS has a baggage load of military shame himself which he can't or won't explain.
This thread has everything to do with Bush as a man who can not tell us where he was for the last year of his military service. Kerrey knew where he was. Kerry was never suspended for disobeying an order as Bush was when he refuse to take his flight physical, which caused him to be suspended from flying.
Don't dare think this thread is not about Bush...If a man like Bush can become POTUS, then a man of honor, courage, and commitment like Kerrey certainly can.
Let me ask you DRS, "What do you think of a man who deserts his military duty during a time of war? If you saw proof that Bush did just this....How would you feel about it? Also, Why won't bush release his military records like McCain and Gore did and like I'm sure Kerrey would do? What is Bush hiding? Do you think it has something to do with his suspension from being a pilot during the Vietnam war?
Do you need to see the Freedom of Information (FOIA) document of Bush being suspended as a pilot (See #6 on the doc.)
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 9:16:09pm (#48 of 1156)
DSR - Do you think John McCain and his pilot buddies ever dropped their bombs on civilians during the war? John McCain ran for POTUS and he was never questioned about his accidents as a qualifier to be POTUS, yet when Bush campaigned and now as CiC, the mainstream press has ignored Bush's military shame and questions Kerrey's potential as being voted POTUS.
There are a lot of Vietnam Vets, their families and friend who have not heard about Bush's disgraceful Vietnam military service record and the word is slowly going out and this is an issue Bush will have to address....
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 9:26:57pm (#54 of 1156)
Findlay - Your Dad served with honor, courage and commitment. He didn't walk away, nor did he get any special treatment or privileges like Bush did. I want to "Thank" your Dad for his service...you have a lot to be proud of...
If you would like to learn about Bush's military shame you should visit:
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 9:43:35pm (#61 of 1156)
Dorothy - If you ever get the chance to visit the Vietnam Memorial, do so. I also want to tell any Vets reading this to do so too. It's a healing...
"So much was lost with you, so much talent and intelligence and decency...you embodied the best that was in us. You were a part of us, and a part of us died with you, the small part that was still young, that had not yet grown cynical, grown bitter and old with death...whatever the right of wrongs of the war, nothing can diminish the rightness of what you tried to do...You were faithful. Your country is not... "As I write this, 11 years after your death, the country for which you died wished to forget the war in which you died. Its very name is a curse...But there are a few of us who do remember because of the small things that made us love you - your gestures, the words you spoke, and the way you looked. We love you for what you were and what you stood for." (This is a passage from Philip Caputo's book, "A Rumor of War. "Recited to Vets during his tribute to the names on the VWM during the dedication of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial by Jan Scruggs, Vietnam Veteran.)..it's a healing with another battle. One of truth...one for the the regular guys...If you visit the wall remember also those who are not on it but who should be...
I had a conversation about George aWol Bush's just walking away from his last year of duty during Nam with a friend and his words haunt me today....(We were discussing protesting Bush whenever and wherever because of his actions during Nam...) The comment my friend made was....
Wolfie, however much he may have wanted to show up, unfortunately, will not be on hand. He's dead, and as far as I'm concerned there ought to be a Wall for all the guys who went down like he did - broken on the wheel of bad memories. They're in pauper's graves, in asylums, on the streets, in the bushes, on the needle... So it's up to guys like me to step up and fill the gap. EVERYWHERE BUSH turns, guys in old khaki jackets carrying signs..."Where Were YOU IN 72?". "President Bush, Why Why Won't You Release your Military Records!" "Why Were You Suspended as a Pilot During the Vietnam War?"
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 10:06:25pm (#71 of 1156)
CNN has censored my posts. It appears that it is okay to discuss Bob Kerry's Vietnam experience and how it might impact his run for office, but we can not discuss GWB's same Vietnam experiences and how he actually made it to office.
Do you think it appropriate that I compare Bush's Vietnam experience to Kerrey's? What ever happened to Freedom of speech?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 10:16:17pm (#79 of 1156)
DRS - Yea right. I believe I have been censored because I was linking "Freedom of Information Act (FIOA) documents about Bush being suspended as a pilot during Vietnam or to web-sites which contain the information. I was unaware that a FIOA doc. was copyrighted or is it that we can not link to any site, any site with a copywrite...I believe a lot of posters link to sites...
As an example the site on my next post--the very one after this one--is a link explaining Bush's Vietnam experience--which we should be able to compared to Kerrey's.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 10:17:11pm (#81 of 1156)
Here is the comparison Bush Vietnam experience:
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 10:31:41pm (#89 of 1156)
DRS - I had to laugh at your poking fun at President Clinton for questioning the Vietnam War, standing up to his beliefs and questioning his own participation in that war--and Bill Clinton made himself available to be drafted, but wasn't because he received a high draft number and wasn't called, but again, he made himself available. On the other hand there were literally millions of dishonest hypocritical, cowardly right-wing loonies who supported the war while refusing to personally participate.
Here are just a few:
Elliott Abrams - Sought deferment for bad back. Richard Armey - Sought college deferment, too smart to die. Bill Bennett - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Pat Buchanan - Sought deferment for bad knee. George W. Bush - Daddy got him in the reserves. Dick Cheney - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Tom DeLay - - Sought college deferment, too smart to die. Newt Gingrich - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Phil Gramm - Sought marriage deferment, too loved to die. Jack Kemp - Sought medical deferment while in the NFL. Rush Limbaugh - Sought deferment for ingrown hair follicle on his ass. Trent Lott - Sought deferment, didn't want to muss his hair. Dan Quayle - Family got him into the Reserves. Pat Robertson - Father pulled him out of Korea as soon as the shooting began. Kenneth Starr - Sought deferment for psoriasis. John Wayne - Sought deferment to further acting career. Vin Weber - Sought deferment for asthma. George Will - Sought deferment, too much of a wussy.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 04/26/01, 10:48:38pm (#97 of 1156)
DSR - Who wanted to be in country? Taking the freebird home was the very best feeling for a lot of Vets...
Who wanted to be in a war we didn't understand or support. My point is that Bob Kerrey...He went. He served. He fought and returned home to serve again.
Compared to Bush who waited 2 weeks before he would have been drafted to have his family use their influence to get into the Air National Guard. I do not begrudge anyone for doing this...Who wanted to go to Nam, but what did Bush do when he jumped ahead of the 500+ on the ANG list...he got into a cushy ANG slot and then was suspended for not taking a mandatory flight physical...(Drugs? We don't know he has never had to answer Why>)....and the thing that pisses me and any Vet who knows the story is the Bush just walked away from his duty Bush has not explained the lost year of his service...he won't release his military records like McCain and Gore did. Why? What is he hiding?
...and CNN asks if Kerrey's service will affect his chances to run for or to hold office?
DeltaDart - Friday, 04/27/01, 12:57:02am (#130 of 1156)
Joe, you said it...and it's right-on:
..."Bob Kerrey has done nothing over the last 30+ years but dedicate himself to what he has decided to be what is "best", morally and ethically, for his country, and has conducted himself, admirably, in such fashion.Newsweek has had this story since 1997 (since 1997) and they were going to use it if Kerrey were to run for president,...and when he didn't they just squirreled it away into their dark-bag of dirt
Think about it...Newsweek and the rest of the
freecorporate-press wanted to use a legit newsworthy story as a weapon against a presidential candidate. They sent reporters to Vietnam to investigate, yet these same organizations did not investigate the military shame of George W. Bush.They have not followed up to ask Bush Where were you in 72?
They have not followed up to ask Bush Why were you suspended as a pilot during Vietnam?
...and as you rightly stated it, Kerrey, a man who with honor, courage, and commitment serving during Nam and afterwards has questionable information released about his military experience...the press jumps all over it...
DeltaDart - Friday, 04/27/01, 2:04:16am (#136 of 1156)
Sam -
Do you think the same thing should happen to Bush? Click here to learn about Bush's military service:
DeltaDart - Sunday, 04/29/01, 11:35:30pm (#484 of 1157)
I've been away for the weekend and since the media and CNN has questioned Kerrey's Vietnam experience as a qualifier to run or hold office, I wanted to ask if anyone answered the questions about Why? George aWol Bush was suspended from being a pilot during Vietnam for disobeying an order to take a mandatory flight physical. (Oh, by the way...the DoD had just began to test pilots for drugs which would have been part of the physical Bush missed...Hmmm?)
Check this link out to see the
[See#:6] on this Freedom of Information (FOIA) document
regarding Bush being suspended as a pilotDoes anyone know where Bush was in 1972? Bush has never explained where is was...maybe someone on this thread knows?
Does anyone know WHY WON'T BUSH RELEASE HIS MILITARY RECORDS? McCain did. Gore did. Why would a sitting POTUS be ashamed of his military service?
If a man like Bush can desert his military duty...then certainly a hero like Kerrey can run and hold office.
DeltaDart - Sunday, 04/29/01, 11:38:24pm (#486 of 1157)
Kevin - What do you think of a man who would desert his military duty during a time of war?
Do you think a man who did this should be able to hold the office of POTUS?
DeltaDart - Sunday, 04/29/01, 11:58:27pm (#493 of 1157)
Col Humbert - I'd like to ask you what you think of a man who would desert his country during a time of war? What would you think of such a man?
Also, Why do you think Bush refused to his mandatory flight physical? As a lifer, what do you think of a man who would refuse orders to take a physical which would cause his flight suspension?
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 1:01:55am (#505 of 1157)
Col Humbert - You make an assumption that my reference to you as a lifer was meant to be something negative. You are wrong sir. Wrong. You are also wrong sir regarding my feeling for Republicans.....You sir, are jumping to a conclusion based on my contempt for a man who used his military record as a guise to run for POTUS. Bush as he ran his campaign said, "I will bring honor and dignity back to the White House"...while knowing he deserted his duty during his Air National Guard duty, while refusing to release his military records, while not answering where he was during 1972, while knowing he was suspended as a pilot...
[See #:6] This is the Freedom of Information (FOIA) document of
Bush being suspended as a pilot during Vietnam...He was suspended for disobeying orders to take a mandatory flight physical...Why did Bush refuse to take his medical exam (Was it because the Air Force had just begun to test for drugs?
Sir, you did not answer my questions:
What do you think of a man who deserts his military duty during a time the U.S. is at war?
Why do you think Bush will not release his military records like Gore and McCain did? What is he hiding?
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 7:11:57pm (#589 of 1158)
T. Johnson,
As a NG serviceman, maybe you can enlighten those that visit here who didn't have the honor of serving as you did...
What would have happened to you if you missed duty?
What would have happened to you if you refused to take your mandatory physical?
Freedom of Information (FOIA) document of
Bush being suspended as a pilot--He Refused to take physical
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 7:40:25pm (#597 of 1158)
DSR - Why would a comparison regarding Bush and Kerrey's Vietnam experiences bother you?
The thread is about one of our leaders military experience during his service during Vietnam and if this experience should affect his chances to run for or to hold office? Yet, we have a man in office who deserted his military duty during the same time in history and if you think a discussion isn't pertinent to the comparisons, then go away and let us continue our debates and discussions on how our leaders roles during Vietnam impact their roles today.
When Bush ran his campaign on, "I will bring honor and dignity back to the White House" and the mainstream media let's his Vietnam experience fall to the wayside, then when the media attacks Sen. Kerrey for his Vietnam experience...I refuse to let the comparisons go unanswered...
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 8:03:13pm (#606 of 1158)
T. Johnson, you said, ..."the Vietnam war was almost over in 1972...
Tell that to One of these Texans took Bush's place in Nam
I had asked you, What would have happened to you if you missed duty and you replied, " You wouldn't get paid and they might send you letter. What NG service did you serve in? Read half-way down (Right hand side what was happening to ANG reservist who shrugged their duty in 1969
I had asked you, What would have happened to you if you refused to take your mandatory physical and you replied, Nothing. They'd probably just pencil in a passing score. So why did they suspend Bush? What NG service did you serve in?
See the Freedom of Information (FOIA) document
of Bush being suspended as a pilot [See #6]
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 8:32:31pm (#608 of 1158)
DSR - you said, (re: avoiding the draft)..."Well...let's not stop HERE....how about some of those famous founding fathers who so elegantly voiced there opinions on breaking away from "the crown" but were unable to lift a musket when things got serious....
Tens of thousands of young Americans served in the military reserves and national guards during the war. Most served their country honorably, and many were called to active duty to serve alongside those of us who fought and died in Vietnam. However, history has revealed that a small group of Americans were able through wealth and connections to avoid active service by being inducted into the guards. Colin Powell said in his book, "My American Journey" on page 148 that "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." Reports have identified current President George W. Bush as one of these Americans. Now we learn from his record that he apparently never even bothered to report for duty for an entire year. The name for this, as any fair and patriotic American knows, is desertion. Also Bush refused (disobeyed orders) to take a mandatory flight physical and he has never explained "Why?" Why did he refuse to take the physical...(Note: This physical would have happened just as the DoD was beginning to test pilots for drugs...Hmmm?)
Bush has a lot to answer for.
Article 83 -Raudulent enlistment, appointment, or separationArticle 85 -Desertion
Article 86 -Absence without leave (AWOL)
Article 87 -Missing movement
Article 134 ("Why did he refuse to take a mandatory exam?" -(Drunkenness--incapacitation for performance of duties through prior wrongful indulgence in intoxicating liquor or any drug
See all the articles Listing of military articles
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 8:59:48pm (#618 of 1158)
T. Johnson, you said, (in reference to the link of Texan servicemen and women who died in Nam) "A fine piece of demagoguery, but nothing to substantiate that any of these men "took his place."
Just two weeks prior to being added to the draft, Bush applied for the Air National Guard. When he applied he jumped ahead of over 500+ others, some who had been on the list for over a year, and he was accepted the very same day he applied. When I say that one of those men took his place, I am referring to the middle-class, regular people who didn't have such privilege.
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 9:03:08pm (#619 of 1158)
DRS -
You asked what Bush has to do with this thread? This thread that questions Kerry's position to be POTUS...a man of honor hen the current POTUS has a baggage load of military shame himself which he can't or won't explain.
This thread has everything to do with Bush as a man who can not tell us where he was for the last year of his military service. Kerrey knew where he was. Kerry was never suspended for disobeying an order as Bush was when he refuse to take his flight physical, which caused him to be suspended from flying.
Don't dare think this thread is not about Bush...If a man like Bush can become POTUS, then a man of honor, courage, and commitment like Kerrey certainly can.
Let me ask you DRS, "What do you think of a man who deserts his military duty during a time of war? If you saw proof that Bush did just this....How would you feel about it? Also, Why won't bush release his military records like McCain and Gore did and like I'm sure Kerrey would do? What is Bush hiding? Do you think it has something to do with his suspension from being a pilot during the Vietnam war?
DeltaDart - Monday, 04/30/01, 9:23:38pm (#629 of 1158)
T. Johnson, you said, We all know that Clinton established that your service record means nothing)
Bill Clinton made himself available for the draft and because he received a high draft number, he wasn't called. What military record of Clinton's are you referring to?
...and you also said, "I spent 2 years in the NG after I got off active duty and never went to a single drill. I didn't get paid, but I did get promoted. :) What a patriot.
You never answered my question of "Why do you think Bush got punished for not taking his mandatory medical exam?
Have you reviewed the Freedom of Information (FOIA) document re: Bush being suspended as a pilot
DeltaDart - Tuesday, 05/01/01, 12:07:57am (#658 of 1158)
C.Randall, you said, "As I said before who cares!!!
Vietnam Veterans as well as WWII Veterans care are beginning to speak out..."The question is, where were you, Governor Bush in 1972?" said Senator Daniel Inouye, Democrat of Hawaii and a World War II veteran. "What would you do as commander-in-chief if someone in the National Guard did the same thing?" Inouye asked...Inouye joined several colleagues, Senators Bob Kerrey, Democrat of Nebraska, and Max Cleland, Democrat of Georgia, in raising harsh questions about Bush's role during the Vietnam War. The remarks were in response to a Globe article this week showing that Bush stopped flying after 22 months within his unit of the Texas Air National Guard. Further, the article reported, Bush failed to show up for required Guard drills during a six-month stay in Alabama, and he was lax even after returning to Houston. "At the least, I would have been court-martialed. At the least, I would have been placed in prison," Inouye said.
So, Bush deserts our country during a time of war and a war hero and Sen. says he and probably most all other men might serve time in prison or be court-martialed and CNN asks us if Kerrey's Vietnam experience will cause him political problems?
DeltaDart - Tuesday, 05/01/01, 11:16:05pm (#704 of 1158)
Sheila Jackson, you said ..."There were all sorts of protesters and leaders during the Vietnam era. Some, like our honorable President Bush, chose to serve proudly in the National Guard..."Bush has lied about his serving in the Alabama National Guard during 1972--that "missing year," which directly contradicts statements made by Lieutenant Colonel William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian in an official report dated May 2, 1973. Their report states that "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." , but William Turnipseed, the retired general who commanded the Alabama unit back then, said in an interview that Bush never appeared for duty there." Bush said he flew "for several years" after his initial training. It was 68 days over a period of 22 months. In April 1972 1st Lt Bush flew his last plane. With two years left in his six year commitment he simply stopped flying. Since he was in the military it was not an option without a board of inquiry. Bush said he didn't fly because he went to work in a political campaign in Alabama. His first request was refused and yet he still left Texas and went to Alabama. He didn't get permission until September 1972 and then he never obeyed the orders to report for duty. Bush said he didn't take a physical because he was in Alabama and his doctor was in Texas. (There are those that believe Bush didn't take the physical because he knew he would fail the drug testing.) Flight exams are given by military doctors. The Alabama base had such doctors. Bush was suspended from flying in August 1972 for failing to obey orders to take a physical. He had stopped flying four months earlier. Bush said he didn't keep flying because his plane had been phased out. That plane was in service at his Houston, TX base for two years after he left for Harvard.
Sheila, What is your opinion of a man who deserts our country during a time of war? Why is this POTUS ashamed of his military record? Why won't Bush release his military medical records, just as Sen. McCain and Al Gore did?" - - - He has been asked now for over a year.
President Bush's private military records can only be released with his permission. They contain the most essential information about how he served while America was at war in Vietnam. His records would include any commendations, comments by superiors about the quality of service and any disciplinary actions or boards of inquiry. Bush's public military records, which have been released under a FOIA request, 9 show the conflicting information that caused the request for President Bush to release his private military records, but Bush has refused to date to release his military records.
You need to learn more? Visit these links:
Learn more about Bush the Deserter
The Smoking Jet
Chasing George W. Bush and the F-102
DeltaDart - Tuesday, 05/01/01, 11:46:14pm (#707 of 1158)
Sheila, You are fixated on Clinton's character to attack Kerrey and while denouncing it, you bless Bush's character and totally overlook his integrity, but no what you do, you can not defend that...
George aWol Bush lied during the presidential campaign, and he is lying now, about his service. He has made several statements, and statements have been made on his behalf, that contradict what the records show.
He says he flew throughout this service. False...On September 29, 1972 Air National Guard orders "suspending 1st Lt. George W. Bush from flying status....Reason for Suspension: Failure to accomplish annual medical exam
He says he did not take the physical because he was in Alabama and his personal physician was in Houston. False...Only Air Force docs do flight physicals.
Sheila, You never answered my questions on POST #: 704 )He says he reported to Alabama and served there. False...The records credit him with no time in Alabama and the commander there at the time says Bush never reported.
He says he stopped flying because his plane was phased out. False... The fighter on which he was trained was used through 1974.
He says he made up missed weekends. False ...He missed sessions can only be made up in the same quarter. If he wasn't there in the same quarter-he couldn't have made up the time!
Click here to Learn about Bush's Military Shame
Also,
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 2:04:06am (#718 of 1158)
Shiela - regarding your constant referral to my posts being off-topic, you need to be aware I am the one who requested this topic (See CNN's Suggested topics...)
My request:
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 04/25/01, 12:42:00pm (#877 of 901) Posted on CNN's Suggest a Topic thread.
Topic: Vietnam Veterans their role in our government and the impact of the Vietnam war on today's policies and leaders.
The News today, Sen. John Kerrey, Silver Medal winner, Vietnam Vet it questioned about his role in Vietnam by the press, yet George W. Bush's role and questionable Air National Guard service (Did he get special privilege to avoid the draft? Has President Bush's refusal to release his military records, as John McCain did and as Al Gore have done, a concern to you? Has President Bush adequately explained where he was in 1972...the years he has not explained where he was? Will Sen. Kerrey's involvement in killing innocent people during the war be a problem for him?)
These are just a few of the questions I would like to have a forum to discuss with other CNN'ers. Vietnam Vets need a place to air out their lives. We as a country need to openly discuss our leaders roles during this time in our history.
CNN responded to my request as follows:
Friday, 04/27/01, 1:19:58am CNN responded (Re: #887 of 901)
DeltaDart 4/25/01 12:42pm
Please visit the Kerrey and Vietnam board to discuss this topic.
So, Sheila, the topic of Bush's Vietnam military service being off topic seems to be a vailed attempt to discredit the truth, so please take note that CNN believes the discussions on this thread can deal with Vietnam, our leaders...Now and then. (This Sheila means we can discuss George aWol Bush's military shame and whether or not his shame will impact is ability to hold office or run again in 04
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 12:48:30pm (#778 of 1158)
Jennifer Franco, you said, "The same goes for Delta and Sheila Jackson. These two are partisan to the core.:-)
I want to try and explain that my partisanship is not Democratic or Republican, but Military.
Please understand that I am pissed-off (as are many Vietnam Vets, their family and friends, and active military) that we have a man as POTUS who deserted his country when others were fighting and dying in Nam. That the man had to balls to run on a campaign of "I will bring honor and dignity back to the White House", when he himself has no honor, courage, or commitment...He has shamed those in the military and the mainstream media has let him slide - I will not!
President Bush is a shame to the men and women who fought in Vietnam - so that is my passion and my partisanship is to bring knowledge to all VVs, their family and friend, and to the active servicemen serving that here we are attacking a man who actually served with honor, courage, and commitment and are hailing a CiC who need to answer:
1. George W. Bush - Where were you in 72?
2. George W. Bush - Why won't you release your military records? Why are you ashamed of you military service? (Remember: John McCain release his. Al Gore release his. Bush refuses to release his--What is he hiding?)
3. George W. Bush - Why were you suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war? (Was it because the mandatory flight physical you refused to take included drug testing? Note: The DoD had implemented drug testing for pilots and the exam Bush was to take--but refused would have included this testing...)
So, Jennifer and anyone else who wants to cubby-hole my passion as a Rep v. Dem....you are wrong. My partisanship is to those men and women who served with honor, courage, and commitment, to those 58,000 names on the Vietnam war and to all the Vets who died in other wars and here at home because of those wars...
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 12:57:45pm (#781 of 1158)
In Alabama and no longer a pilot, Bush was required to perform equivalent Guard duty, and he was ordered to report to Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed, who told reporters this year that he has no recollection of Bush ever showing up. There is no record of Bush ever having served in Alabama, a rather damning fact considering the Guard's obsessive attention to record-keeping in that era. In fact, there is no record of Bush serving anywhere for an entire year, from May 1972 to May 1973-despite having promised he would.
Three senior officers in the 187th say that they have no recollection of Bush ever showing up!
1. Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed
2. Turnipseed's administrative officer
3. the then-squadron operations officer
Turnipseed's administrative officer at the time has also said he doesn't remember Bush serving in Alabama. Turnipseed told reporters that he recently talked to the then-squadron operations officer of the Alabama Guard and that he, too, had no recollection of having seen Bush. Furthermore, a spokesman for the Alabama National Guard estimates there were 600 to 700 members in the unit Bush was supposed to have served with in 1972. But none of these men has ever come forward to say he remembers Bush, and Bush has not named a single one of them.NOTE: There was, and still is, a $3,500.00 reward that has been available since well before the election that anyone can collect if they can prove Bush was on duty in Alabama....NO ONE (NOT ONE OF THE 600-700 MEN AND WOMEN) HAS COME FORWARD TO COLLECT THE REWARD...but then again, how can anyone come forward because Bush never showed up...
...and the media let this man slide, but Vietnam Vets won't and Bush will have to answer:
1. Where were you in 72?
2. Why won't you release you military records like McCain and Gore did? What are you ashamed of? What are you hiding?
3. Why were you suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war?
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 1:16:24pm (#788 of 1158)
Hugh, the question here on this thread is How will or did the Vietnam experience of Kerrey affect his chances to run for or to hold office?
You may well think it is okay for the press to attack Kerrey for his Vietnam experience, while leaving the military shame of George W. Bush go unquestioned, but Vietnam Vets will not and the discussions to compare the two are valid.
Hugh - You never answered my questions:
What do you think of a man who deserts his military duty during a time when the U.S. is at war?
What do you think of a POTUS who is so ashamed of is military record he hides it?
What do you think about this CiC being suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war?
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 1:55:17pm (#807 of 1158)
Regarding your comment about discussions of Bush's Military Shame being off-topic Please visit the..... " CNN Suggest a Topic link " If you visit CNNs "Suggest a Topic" thread, you will see I was the one who originally suggested this topic and in so doing included making comparisons to Bush's Vietnam experience part of my request...(See Post #: 877) and CNNs reply (Post #: 909)
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 04/25/01, 12:42:00pm (#877 of 911)Topic: Vietnam Veterans their role in our government and the impact of the Vietnam war on today's policies and leaders.
The News today, Sen. Bob Kerrey, Bronze and MOH winner, Vietnam Vet it questioned about his role in Vietnam by the press, yet George W. Bush's role and questionable Air National Guard service (Did he get specail privilege to avoid the draft? Has President Bush's refusal to release his military records, as John McCain did and as Al Gore have done, a concern to you? Has President Bush adequetely explained where he was in 1972...the years he has not explained where he was? Will Sen. Kerrey's involvement in killing innocent people during the war be a problem for him?) These are just a few of the questions I would like to have a forum to discuss with other CNN'ers. Vietnam Vets need a place to air out their lives. We as a country need to openly discuss our leaders roles during this time in our history.
Please introduce a topic "The Vietnam War - then and now. Let us discuss our leaders, the war, and how it is impacting our lives today.
I introduced the topic. CNN put it up and referred me to post here...So, let's discuss Bush, Clinton, Kerrey, Cheney...and whether or not their Vietnam experiences will affect their ability to run for or hold office...
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 2:05:08pm (#812 of 1158)
When a sitting POTUS refuses to release his military record as John McCain did, when a sitting POTUS was suspended from being a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war, when a sitting POTUS can not explain where he was for more than a year during his military service during Vietnam (Where was he in 72?)...doesn't this reveal the foundation of the man's character, honor, integrity, and dignity, which unfortunately for America, guides his policies and leadership goals...
Bush's military shame during Vietnam needs to go out Vietnam Vets, their family and friends and to those now actively serving. Some like DSR will not care that this CiC deserted his
military duty during a war, was suspended as a pilot for refusing orders, and who is hiding his military records....But there are many others who do and will, which will impact Bush's ability to
hold office.
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 2:21:35pm (#817 of 1158)
DRS, you asked why I would include you in a comment about not caring about Bush's military record...Because you just several minutes ago posted..."..I'm a Vietnam Vet and I'm not interested in that direction of discussion.
You want this discussion to be limited to speak only of one Vietnam Veterans experience and how that experience might impact his ability to run for office or hold office, yet when someone like myself introduces a comparison like Bush's Vietnam experience, you cry, "Off-topic!"
Sorry DRS - Can't stop me...never will.
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 2:35:46pm (#820 of 1158)
DRS, you said, "....as many have said...you've got an agenda, has nothing to do with the topic, you are only interested in Bush.
DRS, Bush is the POTUS. As POTUS he is also the CiC and therefore is to be held to the highest of standards--As it was stated by those who didn't support Clinton.
I'd be more than willing to take up the discussions on Dick Cheney and discuss his Vietnam experience or Dick Armey or Dick Gephardt or Tom Daschle or Dennis Hastert or Tom Delay or John Ashcroft's or even Colin Powell's Vietnam experience if you would like, but Bush is the POTUS and he is the CiC and as so he deserves to be held to the same scrutiny as Kerrey for his shame will impact his ability to hold office.
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 2:47:23pm (#828 of 1158)
Hugh - DRS, okay, inform me of Clinton's military experiences needing to be discussed while serving in our armed forces during Vietnam like Bush and Kerrey did?
"...How do you feel his revelations (Vietnam military experience) affect his chances to run for or to hold office?
Last I knew, Bill Clinton made himself available to be drafted and wasn't because his draft number was too high to be called. I do not recall Bill Clinton serving in the military during Vietnam as Bush and Kerrey did and would find it hard to compare a military experience of Bush's and Kerrey's to Clinton.
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 3:12:50pm (#838 of 1158)
Hugh Steinem, you said, "...And Deltadart, you obviously dislike Bush and relish the opportunity to attack him. You don't care about military records or standards at all, all you see is an opportunity to attack. If military service mattered to you in your selection of candidate for president you would have voted for Bush Sr.
Hugh - You never answered my questions:
What do you think of a man who deserts his military duty during a time when the U.S. is at war?
What do you think of a POTUS who is so ashamed of is military record he hides it?
What do you think about this CiC being suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war?
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 5:07:26pm (#873 of 1158)
The press wants to question Kerrey's service but have given Bush a ride...
Is it unreasonable to raise the possibility that 1st Lt. Bush was suspended from flying as a direct or indirect consequence of substance abuse? It might be if there was no way for Bush to prove his innocence. But George W. Bush can readily defend himself, if he so chooses, simply by voluntarily releasing his complete military record.
A voluntary disclosure of this kind is not without precedent. During the South Carolina Republican primary this campaign year, rumors were spread by fellow Senators about Senator John McCain's mental health as a result of his imprisonment as a POW. McCain immediately quashed those rumors by voluntarily releasing his entire military record, which confirmed no indications of adverse physical or mental conditions.
Thus, Bush could easily put to rest the questions surrounding "his failure to accomplish annual medical examination" - and his subsequent suspension - if he would simply release his complete military service record, which cannot be released by the Air Force without Bush's explicit consent.
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 5:11:46pm (#874 of 1158)
Bob Kerrey was never questioned about drug use whereas Bush has a very questionable Vietnam error drug question....He was suspended for refusing to take a mandatory flight physical (just when the DoD began to test for drugs...)
Click here to See the Freedom of Information doc. regarding Bush's Suspension [See #6]
So Bob Kerrey's ability to serve is now being questioned because of his Vietnam experience, but the press gives Bush a ride on being
disciplined to basically refuse to take a drug test? This suspension and refusal will impact Bush's
ability to hold his office in 2004...
DeltaDart - Wednesday, 05/02/01, 7:20:28pm (#889 of 1158)
wm caldwell - You said, "What do Clinton or Bush have to do with Vietnam or Kerrey? Neither the deserter or the rapist were there.
Clinton wasn't drafted, nor did he enlist. Bush on the other hand, avoided the draft by receiving special privilege to get into the Air National Guard. Bush--just 2 weeks before he would have been drafted applied to the Guard and he was accepted the same day. When Bush applied, again just a few weeks before he would have been drafted, he immediately jumped over 500+ others who were already on a waiting list to get into the Guard--some waiting for over a year.
Now let answer your question...What does Bush have to do with Vietnam or Kerrey? Bush joined the Guard to avoid the draft. He received very special privilege and treatment to get into the guard and while he was in the Guard. What did he do?
George W. Bush - Just walked away from his military duty during Vietnam--Where was he in 1972?
George W. Bush - was suspended as a fighter pilot during Vietnam for not obeying orders to take a mandatory flight physical.
George W. Bush - will not release his military records? What is he hiding?
Bob Kerrey served his full duty. Bob Kerrey did not walk away. Bob Kerrey won the Medal of Honor. Bob Kerrey would release his military records if asked.
What does Bush have to do with Vietnam? Not much, but why would the press investigate, interview, and report Bob Kerrey's Vietnam experience and just let Bush's experience go unanswered?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 12:02:59pm (#959 of 1158)
Hugh Steinem , you said, "After posting yesterday, and reading today's notes on Kerrey, it is amazing to see how many people want to change what happened to Kerrey into an attack on Bush. - And I don't think Kerrey should be subject to any investigations regarding the incident. However, he did use his status as a "war hero" to condemn others and elevate himself, which makes the validity of his "hero" status open to examination
You accuse Bob Kerrey (...and you make no mention of John McCain) of using his honor, courage, and commitment as a serviceman who was awarded medals by his country, but think that a man (George W. Bush) who deserted his military duty (Where was Bush in 1972-missing from the Guard for over a year?), a man (George W. Bush) who was suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war for refusing orders to take a mandatory physical, and a man (George W. Bush) who refused to release his military records as John McCain did...as Al Gore did) should not be open to examination.
1. (Desertion) - Where was Bush in 72?
2. (Suspension )- Why was Bush suspended as a pilot during Nam?
3. (Shame) - Why won't Bush release his military records? Why is this POTUS ashamed of his military service?
Want to learn more about Bush's Vietnam experience....Visit:
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 12:58:19pm (#968 of 1158)
Hugh Steinem, you said, "On the SUBJECT OF THE DAY, Kerrey, go read his CMH citation and compare it to others from Vietnam. See if you think he deserved it. It may help you take your mind off your obsession.
I know you want to Divert attention away from Bush's Vietnam experience and how it impacts him as a politician as the press is doing to Bob Kerrey's Vietnam experience, but you will never be able to separate Bush from Vietnam.
You seem to now want to hang a hat on my going after Bush---You're right! The man disobeyed orders to take a mandatory flight physical, the man is so ashamed of his military record he will not release it...and the man deserted his duty while others were fighting and dying in Nam.
Hugh, it's a good fight for me to educate those VV, family and friends, and folks like you of George W. Bush's military shame.
Let me ask you directly:
Hugh, Do you believe Bush deserted his military duty during Vietnam? Do you know where he was in 1972? Bush doesn't. He just walked away from his Air National Guard duty while the war was going on...
Hugh, Why did Bush refuse to take a mandatory flight physical which resulted in Bush being suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war?
Hugh, Why won't President Bush release his military records? What is he ashamed of--What is he hiding?
...and finally, Hugh - Will Bush's Vietnam experience cause him to be a one-term President when Vets, their family and friends begin to learn about his Vietnam experience?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 1:08:54pm (#971 of 1158)
The issue of Kerrey v. Bushs Vietnam experience as it relates to holding or running for office is what this thread is about....about Vietnam and our leaders role....McCain, Powell, you could chose to discuss others if you wish--thats your choice.
Mine is to discuss why Bush's Vietnam experience should not be investigated as Kerry's is and to discuss if Bush's desertion, suspension, and refusal to release his military records will be a problem for him to hold office--Bush will be a one-term POTUS as more people find out about his military shame:
Click here to learn about the Military Shame of George W. Bush
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 1:17:17pm (#975 of 1158)
Hugh, I asked you if you think Bush's Vietnam experience will hurt him in 2004 and you simply want to only talk about Kerrey as the press attacks his Vietnam experience.
Sorry, Hugh that it is painful as a Bush supporter to learn he deserted and was suspended and refuses to release his military records, but please do discuss if you think Bush's experience will affect his ability to run or hold office? (We could talk about someone else in the GOP, but you would then have to admit Bush will be a one-term POTUS)
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 2:06:24pm (#988 of 1158)
So, now we turn on DeltaDart. Why? Because those of you who support Bush can not accept the truth and rather than address it, you want to divert the discussion away by posting, "off-topic", obsessed, rants, or my new favorite-- ("He can't! Like all the other extremist that roll around CNN's boards, they've got one gear and one gear only......searching for a platform to "drip" their anti-Clinton, anti-Gore or anti-Bush diatribe....not really interested in adding to or challenging the conversation at hand...."
Bush deserted. Bush was suspended as a fighter pilot during Vietnam. Bush refuses to release his military records.
The press attacked Kerrey's Vietnam experience, but not Bush's and CNN asks if Kerrey's experience will affect his ability to run or hold office. I say, it won't, but George W. Bush's Vietnam experience will. What say you?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 2:47:51pm (#997 of 1158)
DTIAW, you said, " But if Clinton's evasive maneuver vis-a-vis military service didn't make him unqualified, why would Bush's?
Thanks for the question. Bill Clinton did not serve in the military during the Vietnam war. Bill Clinton made himself available for the draft and wasn't drafted (His # was to high). Bill Clinton did not use his military career to forward his campaigns. Bill Clinton never hid draft letters, records...etc. Bill Clinton was attacked viscously for the mere presumption of dodging the draft--the GOP made it a focal point to smear and try and keep him out of office.
George W. Bush on the other hand did serve in military. He deserted his duty by just walking away for the last year. Bush has not yet explained where he was in 1972? George W. Bush while in the military was punished for not obeying an order to take a mandatory flight physical which resulted in his being suspended as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war. George W. Bush is the Commander-in-Chief and yet, he refuses to release his military records. - Why?
I believe these facts make Bush very suspect to being able to hold office in 2004 and it makes his position as CiC weak. In regards to Bush being unqualified for holding office....He is and because the mainstream press "ignored" the military shame of Bush America did not get the complete story during the election. If they did, Bush would not be POTUS.
Again, if the press and those on this board are willing to attack Bob Kerrey for his Vietnam experience and say this experience will affect his ability to run for or hold office, then Bush's (and all Vets who want to run or hold office) are fair game.
However, George W. Bush needs to be held to a higher standard because he did become POTUS and is CiC.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 3:02:52pm (#1003 of 1158)
Peter Klinger, you said Who cares?
News Conference Requesting Records: George W. Bush Military Suspension and Punishment (Senators Inouye and Kerrey)
Hugh Steinem, Bush deserted. Bush was suspended as a fighter pilot during Vietnam. Bush will not release his military records. Deal with it.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 4:06:36pm (#1015 of 1159)
DRS, you said, "Shame is shame....I'll say it again....at this time I have a hard time harboring ill feelings towards men who did everything thing they could to avoid going to Vietnam.
What did your signature and "word" mean to serve with honor, courage, and commitment when you signed signed up? Were you "just kidding?" Did you think you could just walk away? Would you have just walked away?
What did it mean to you?
Honor, courage, and commitment?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 4:39:14pm (#1022 of 1159)
DRS, you said, "Where is the press?"
I'm not quite certain what your after. Do you need to see articles about Bush or are you referring to where the mainstream media disappeared to regarding Bush's military shame?
Media coverage like the one below began to surface, but there was an effort by the Bush camp to quash it...which I believe the DUI story (Where Bush tried to hide his past) was a part of the wash...
" Bush working to keep truth hidden, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Nov. 3 "But the most perplexing deception involves Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War. The evidence is inconclusive about how Bush succeeded in getting into the Guard, thus avoiding the draft, but it does suggest that strings were pulled on his behalf. The record is very clear, however, that at one point Bush transferred his obligation to a Guard unit in Alabama, then failed to report for duty there. All in all, he ducked out of 18 months of his Guard duty. Though the term "deserter" is too harsh to describe what Bush did, it's no more unfair than the "draft dodger" label applied to Bill Clinton for his own effort to avoid Vietnam. And the perplexing part of the story is the very different reaction that Bush's service record has inspired. The same people who claimed to find Clinton so morally disgusting apparently see nothing wrong in what Bush did. On that point, Bush isn't fooling them. They're fooling themselves.
Where was the media? That is an entirely new subject that I would love to discuss. There are tons of articles like the above, but try and find follow-up...What happened? Where did the press go? Why are there still lingering questions like:
1. President Bush - Where were you in 1972?
2. President Bush - Why did you refuse to take a mandatory flight exam?
3. President Bush - Why won't you release your military records? What are you hiding?
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 6:17:26pm (#1034 of 1159)
DRS - you said, I mean, you can print, scream, picket or whatever, it's not going to change anything for the remainder of his term.
Thanks. My posts have been about just that... "What do you think of this situation? How do you feel his [Bush's] revelations affect his chances to run for or to hold office? (2004)
I might have missed it but you didn't respond to my inquiry of whether or not you felt obligated to serve with honor, courage, and commitment when you signed your name? Did you just walk away? Would you have just walked away?
Your answer is my position as well (yes, I'm being presumptive, but I can not believe VVs believe what Bush did was right) and when 2004 rolls around Bush will have to answer to his desertion, his suspension, and will have to release his military records or his is a one-termer. I also believe there will be opportunities in the future when his authority as CiC will become suspect
because of his past.
DeltaDart - Thursday, 05/03/01, 6:54:47pm (#1036 of 1159)
DRS - 10/4 on denial.
I did a quick search to check how the GOP viewed Clinton...and now that people are beginning to understand George W. Bush deserted his duty during Nam, that he disobeyed orders and was suspended as a fighter pilot and that he refuses to release his military records...I wonder why these same folks did not speak up against a man with Bush's shame.
At the GOP convention...Wisconsin Gov. Tommy Thompson even called Clinton a "draft dodger" in the war on poverty, for his refusal to sign Republican-backed welfare reform legislation.<http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/GOPCVN_NoClinton000802.html>As the GOP never tires of pointing out, President Clinton went to great pains to avoid military service during the Vietnam War. "Draft dodger" is the description of choice, and what a great contrast that was going to make: Clinton, the war protester, vs. Dole, the wounded war hero. Many Republicans, especially veterans, are still repelled at the idea of Clinton as commander in chief and routinely raise the issue in calls to radio talk shows and letters to newspapers. <http://www.sacbee.com/news/election/columns/end081496.html>
Pumped up by the polls and the moment, President Bush [Jr's Dad] raced across Michigan Thursday in rhetorical overdrive, attacking the "way-out, far-out" Democratic ticket on everything from northern spotted owls to his opponent's draft record. The whole Bush campaign, including the warm up speakers, were charged up Thursday. At the Warren event, Democratic state Sen. Gilbert J. Dinello churned the crowd into a frenzy by calling Clinton a draft-dodger, a liar and a man who "wails, whines and wimps out." <http://www-tech.mit.edu/V112/N53/bush.53w.html>
...and the following link is the hypocritical cats-meow...
Regarding Vietnam...The Christian - Free Republic asked,
(3/18/98), "Where were you Clinton
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 12:27:55am (#1040 of 1159)
60 Minutes did their story on Bob Kerrey and I have begun to wonder if they (or politically connected media powers) did it to keep him from running for office in 2004. Was the story release solely to stop Kerrey?
If you take a look at some of Sen. Kerrey's harsh statements against Bush (See the links below), it could be argued that maybe there was more than a media story behind the 60 minute story.
Sen. Kerrey was outspoken regarding the outcome of the election...he said he didn't think the USSC had made the right decision and that Bush didn't win the election, but we do have a President. Sen. Kerrey was also outspoken about George W. Bush deserting his military duty during the Vietnam era
Bob Kerrey says no one won in election
OMAHA (AP) -- Nebraska's top-ranking Democrat believes no one won the presidential election.In his first public statement since Tuesday's U.S. Supreme Court decision ended the election dispute, Sen. Bob Kerrey said Thursday that he believed the court was in error. "We do not have a winner, but we do have a president-elect. His name is George W. Bush," Kerrey said in a press release.
Bob Kerrey blasts Bush on deserting his military duty during Vietnam
Senator Bob Kerrey, a Nebraska Democrat who won the Medal of Honor for his service in Vietnam, expressed disgust yesterday at evidence that George W. Bush sidestepped National Guard duty for months in 1972 and 1973, a lapse that Kerrey said amounts to Bush being AWOL - absent without leave. ''It upsets me,'' Kerrey said in an interview, ''when someone says, `Vote for me, I was in the military,' when in fact he got into the military in order to avoid serving in the military, to avoid service that might have taken him into the war. And then he didn't even show up for duty.'' Bush, Kerrey said in an interview, ''needs to explain where he was when he was supposed to be fulfilling his military obligation. If he is elected president, how will he be able to deal as commander in chief with someone who goes AWOL, when he did the same thing?''
So, was the story released because Kerrey spoke out about the election or because Kerrey discussed Bush's military shame--maybe there were political motives behind the 60 Min/NYT story? If those who feared Sen. Kerrey politically thought that if they could discredit him now then it might cause him to totally not consider running in 2004. I believe he won't but if he did, his Vietnam experience is so much more creditable than Bush's that he should not have a problem. Bush has the Vietnam problem.
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 7:08:20pm (#1077 of 1159)
Sheila Jackson, you wrote, Delta Dart AGAIN wrote on Bob Kerrey's actions: Also, I'd like to ask you, What you think about President Bush deserting his military duty during Vietnam? President Bush just walked away during his Air National Guard duty during Vietnam. Where was Bush in 1972? Also, do you have anything against Bush for refusing to take a mandatory flight physical (The DoD had just begun to test pilots for drugs and Bush disobeyed orders by refusing to take his medical exam)...
...and in the same posting you try to explain away the shame of George W. Bush's military record by saying it should not be compared to Bob Kerrey's calling it off-topic. Sorry Sheila - You are wrong.
1. Medal of Honor winner: Bob Kerry, serves honorable with courage and commitment
...a. The Media attacks his Vietnam service
......i. Media Questions if it affect his ability to run/hold office?
2. George W. Bush refuses to release his military records, deserts his duty, and is punished for not obeying orders.
...a. The Media doesn't cover his Vietnam service record--Let's him slide.
......i. We now begin to question if this will affect him running in 2004?
So, the question of our leadership (present and future) being impacted by or because of one's Vietnam experience is a question for Bob Kerrey, but it is one that George W. Bush will be forced to address, because Bush's Vietnam experience is much more of a problem than Kerrey's. As the word goes out it will impact Bush's ability to lead and run in 2004, whereas Kerrey will not have a problem because he served with honor, courage, and
commitment and this will all be behind him.
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 7:23:34pm (#1081 of 1159)
Will Vietnam Veterans like John Kerrey have a problem running for or holding office. I do not think so, but you have to review the facts, because it might possible be a factor for some...
As an example:
John Kerrey did this. and George W. Bush did this.
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 7:32:00pm (#1083 of 1159)
Sheila Jackson, you said, "....The inherent lack of courage and patriotism of the common liberal anti-war protester was even more pronounced. Those that didn't flee the country to avoid service like Bill Clinton, abused their fragile minds with hallucinogenic drugs of every variety, harassed and spat upon our veterans, burned our beloved flag, and worst of all, took the side of the North Vietnamese against their own country."
But you forgot to mention...Elliott Abrams - Sought deferment for bad back. Dick Armey - Sought college deferment, too smart to die. Bill Bennett - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Pat Buchanan - Sought deferment for bad knee. George W. Bush - Deserted. Dick Cheney - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Tom DeLay - - Sought college deferment, too smart to die. Newt Gingrich - Sought graduate school deferment, too smart to die. Phil Gramm - Sought marriage deferment, too loved to die. Jack Kemp - Sought medical deferment while in the NFL. . Trent Lott - Sought deferment, didn't want to muss his hair. Dan Quayle - Family got him into the Reserves. Kenneth Starr - Sought deferment for
psoriasis...and the one right up your alley: Rush Limbaugh - Sought deferment for ingrown hair follicle on his ass.
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 10:07:49pm (#1098 of 1159)
Bob Kerrey says about the reported incident...
This was a free-fire zone and there was significant Viet Cong activity in the area, and our mission was to interrupt a high-level [Viet Cong] district meeting that was going on," Kerrey told the Los Angeles Times. "I believe it went on in that village that night. "Not only had I flown the area to be sure there were no civilians, but we were told anyone in that area could be considered the enemy."
In his autobiography, A Charge to Keep, George W. Bush claims... In Alabama and no longer a pilot, Bush was required to perform equivalent Guard duty, and he was ordered to report to Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed, who told reporters this year that he has no recollection of Bush ever showing up. There is no record of Bush ever having served in Alabama-"Where was Bush in 72?", a rather damning fact considering the Guard's obsessive attention to record-keeping in that era. In fact, there is no record of Bush serving anywhere for an entire year, from May 1972 to May 1973-despite having promised he would
Two stories of two men who served out country during the Vietnam war. One served with honor, courage, and commitment and was caught up in the horrors of war. Today his ability to run for office or hold office because of his service during Nam is questioned because of his service. The other - the other uses his service as a banner of honor (I will bring honor and dignity back to the White House is what George W. Bush campaigned on...) to assist his run for the presidency when the whole time he knows he has a problem. He knows he has not answered where he was in 1972 (that he was missing in action for over a year), he knows he has not answered why he refused to obey orders and take a flight physial which caused him to be suspended as a fighter pilot, and he knows he hides his military records from being reviewed, which would certainly--if creditable--have answered these questions.
So we have two different men. We have two different Vietnam experiences, yet Bob Kerrey is the one defending himself...it is Bob Kerrey who has to answer questions about his service (And he does answer them!) and it is Bob Kerrey who we question if his Vietnam experience will cause him problems to run for or hold office. It is now time to ask the same of Bush.
After flight training school in 1970, he "continued flying with [his] unit for the next several years." This is not true. In May 1972, Bush moved to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign, and he never flew again. In fact, in August 1972 the Texas Guard took Bush off active flight status for good-suspending him as a fighter pilot during the Vietnam war--because he refused to take his annual medical exam. The exam was mandatory and would have been the first one where Bush would have been tested for drugs. (Is this why he disobeyed orders and refused to take the exam??) [Bush's Suspension--See #6]
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 11:20:00pm (#1108 of 1159)
...and after sifting through the last several posts, we are back to asking if President Bush's Vietnam era duty will impact his ability to run for office or hold on to his office in 2004.
Bob Kerrey, a VV served and his ability to lead as a politician is questions, whereas Bush deserted his duty, was suspended as a fighter pilot during Vietnam and he to this day refuses to release his military record! Why is President Bush ashamed of his
military record? Will his shameful military career be a problem for him in 2004?
Post #: 1108 was my last post.
Once CNN had determined to "censor" or delete my posts regarding George W. Bush's military career and shame on the thread CNN told me to use to post my discussions on Bush and just before they banned me from using their forums, I posted the following two osts to them in their "Suggest a topic" thread (...the last post included my sense of frustration regarding their tactic....)
DeltaDart - Friday, 05/04/01, 11:56:04am (#930 of 941)
As a new Forum visitor to CNNs Vietnam and Kerrey board many post are being deleted because the censor does not feel the comparison of Sen. Bob Kerrey's Vietnam experience has relevance to that of George W. Bush's.
It is frustrating to have CNN censor these comparisons. The Topic subject is asking a question of how the story of Bob Kerrey's Vietnam duty might affect his ability to run for or hold office The press (and CNN included) has asked if Kerrey's Vietnam experience will cause him poliltical problems, but CNN will not allow discussions regarding the "equally" troubling questions of President Bush.
I do not want to believe that CNN is being manipulated by the Bush camp and therefore being forced to censor any comparisons of Kerrey's Vietnam experience to that of President Bush's.
I would therefore like to suggest that you create a topic which would allow discussions of George W. Bush's Vietnam experience and how it does or doesn't impact his ability to lead. Will GWB's Vietnam military experience cause him problems as the Commander-in-Chief.
I have reviewed CNN's "discussion standard" which state posts should be "on-topic" and when the Kerrey/Vietnam Topic asks about how Kerrey's Vietnam experience would impact his ability to hold office, it to me seemed natural that the topic should include a comparison to Bush's Vietnam experience and how it will impact his ability to lead and run again in 2004
Please create a topic "Will Pres. Bush's military service cause him the same kind of problems Sen. Bob Kerrey is experiencing? Will Bush's military service problems prevent him for being a two-term president?
TOPIC: BUSH's Military Past
DeltaDart - Saturday, 05/05/01, 10:44:05am (#938 of 941)
To CNNs Staff, you post, "
Welcome to the CNN Community! This is the place for you to post suggestions for new boards or ways that you'd like to see our existing boards changed. We can't guarantee that we can do it, but we'll do our best.
This message is in regards to "ways that you'd like to see our existing boards changed."
CNN deletes (censors) posting on "Recommend a topic" without any explainations. Is this doing your best? Please at least have the common courtesy to post your common refusal "We are not planning a board on this topic at this time." when someone suggests a topic. (this is the place, someone might say rude and nasty things about the way you treat your visitors, but I will not stoop to that level...)
I had A topic called "Bush's Military Service - A problem for you? and rather than give me the respect of posting your decision not to create the topic, you simply deleted it, as if CNN were commanded by the White House to not allow any discussions on George W. Bush's Military Shame.
George W. Bush has not answered question about his military career:
1. He deserted--he has not yet explained where he was for the last year of his Air National Guard duty? Why?
2. He was punished and suspended as a fighter pilot--he has not yet explained why he refused to take a flight physical which caused him to be suspended as a pilot? Why?
3. He refuses t this day to release his militay records like John McCain did, like Al Gore did? Why?
Please show your visitors and subscribers a little respect and do not delete this request, but let me know where I can go on your forum topics to discuss Bush or that you will not allow topics on him.
Thank you - Delta Dart